Primacy, Schimacy: How Data is Changing Primary Banking Relationships

Okay.

Good afternoon everyone.

Welcome and thank you for coming to the session.

Today we're gonna talk about primacy. Primary financial

institution and how is that still important,

and if so, what does it mean to different generations

and what does it mean to financial institutions as we begin

to have deeper insights and data

and access looks different.

So let me introduce my panel first,

or I'm actually gonna ask them to introduce themselves

and then we'll dive into some really hard questions.

David, you wanna go first?

Sure. I'm David Metz. I am CEO of Prizeout.

Prizeout is a pay by bank

and reward solution based in New York.

Hi, I'm Martha Beard.

I'm with JP Morgan, and I run our pay

by bank emerging payment rails

and payments advocacy in Washington. Off to you Nathan.

Hi everyone. Nathan Quezada. I'm from Bank of America.

I lead our financial health

and wellness strategy as part

of our client experience group,

and I'm based out of Phoenix, Arizona.

Excellent, thank you.

So I was kind of popping into the sessions

that were happening right before this,

and they were teeing us up so nicely,

and the session next door talked about data

and how we serve members

and customers through access to greater data.

So first of all, can we jump in

and talk about what does primacy mean

and does access to more data change

that definition moving forward?

David, do you wanna start with that one?

Sure. Um, I think primacy,

if you really wanna boil it down, means capturing the

customer's deposits, right?

That's what everyone cares about. Access to data.

There's multiple levels, right?

I think it's becoming more about personalization, right?

I work a lot with credit unions

and I was actually reading up on the history

of credit unions a few months ago,

and what I learned is that for decades,

credit unions dominated in customer satisfaction.

And then in 2010 to 2012, they fell

behind traditional banks.

Do you guys know why that was?

What happened in that period? What was it?

The experience went digital.

It used to be you walk in branch, it's like, Hey Bob,

hey Sally, how's that golf swing?

How's the kids? Right?

That experience has now become digital

and for the first time credit unions have fallen behind.

They're, they're doing a good job of catching up,

but that personalization is still super important.

Healthcare and finance is a very personal thing,

and people want that, and you can't walk into a branch

anymore, so you have to leverage their data

to make the experience personalized.

Awesome. Martha, how about you?

First of all, I would say that

primacy is not only about data,

but it's, it's about being at the center

of somebody's financial life and what does that look like?

And I think I've heard

so many great stories about different types of institutions

and different types of businesses

where those companies have figured out what that center is.

And I think that's what we need to do.

It could be deposits, it could be something else

and somebody else's lifestyle.

Maybe it's not deposits, maybe it's loans

or maybe it's access.

But, you can't understand what

that center is without having the data

and understanding the right data points, which is also,

I think, part of the key too.

Yeah, and I think for banks

and financial institutions, we think about primacy in terms

of products, right?

Do you have direct deposit? Is your paycheck going in there?

Um, do you have a set number of products

with this financial institution?

But I try to flip it

and I think about the client perspective

and think about primacy from the fact of

what it means for them.

It means that I trust this institution,

I trust this institution to know me

and also to provide me with advice

and guidance for banks, credit unions,

and other financial institutions.

That's our role. That's why we were created is

to help others be financially successful.

And so data is a huge component of that.

If I am giving you my trust as a customer to do,

to use your services, to use your product to transact

with your card, I'm expecting that you are using that

and providing some sort of value to me.

And that value happens to be what we can provide in the form

of financial advice and guidance,

and helping our clients be successful.

So again, I think we've been stuck in this mindset

of primacy being focused on products,

but shifting it from a focus of, um, the client's needs.

Another component is digital engagement.

So at Bank of America, we think about this in terms

of digital engagement to as well,

where are our clients going

and spending their time the most?

And are we making it easy for them?

And are we breaking that trust with our clients

by having processes that are too difficult for them to want

to transact with us?

So again, how do we build trust with our clients?

Excellent. So many times through these answers,

I heard the word access and trust.

So can we talk a little bit about the generation

that's coming up and in today's world at their fingertips,

they can access pretty much anything that they need

and they do it seamlessly through

multiple interactions and multiple apps.

It's not unusual to look at a 20 year old's phone

and they have 50 apps on their phone, right?

And so with that ease of access, how do you think

that impacts the primacy conversation?

And do you still think

that we should put the marketing dollars that we do,

we spend a lot of marketing dollars behind trying

to convince a consumer

that we should be their primary financial institution.

Should we still be doing that?

Is there, or is there a different

approach that we should be taking?

So let's talk about access

and then what approach we should be taking

to gain additional rev share.

So you wanna start, David?

Sure. It's a good question.

And to your point is like what does primacy mean?

Is it deposits? Is it payments, is it loans?

Whatever it might be.

And you're right, you know, there are so many apps

and there's so many companies

that are specializing in one thing

and that one thing is they go to bed

and they wake up every morning thinking

about and perfecting.

So like as a financial institution,

how can you compete with that?

There's a saying, we say at my company's like,

the fastest way to make no one happy is try

to make everyone happy, right?

So you can't be good at all things.

So I think one of the,

the most important things is who are you?

Right? Do you serve the affluent?

Do you serve the underserved? Right?

We work with a

credit union in California called SchoolsFirst,

and they've seen a lot of growth over the last decade.

And one of their execs there told me about a decade ago,

they made the decision that we are a teacher's credit union.

That is who we are.

We can open our membership to everyone,

but that's not who we are.

And they thrive because if you're a teacher in California,

that's where you bank, right?

And they dominate that market instead of trying

to be all things to all people.

So I think it starts with who are you

and really perfect that.

Mm-hmm. Excellent.

Yeah. I'm gonna take a little bit

of a different approach to the answer.

'cause I, I think one of the things

that we've already talked about and

and we'll continue to talk about is that digital experience

and the digital experience being the channel.

And you brought up something

that really is extremely important in the way we think about

the dollar spent

and value of the dollar spent in trying

to acquire a customer

to keep the customer in terms of loyalty.

But one of the things I think that's so critical right now,

particularly in you know, kind of the stage

that we're in in terms of technology adoption, the choices,

you know, the phone blowing up with lots of apps,

and that's education.

And using your platform

and using your channel to actually educate your customer

in a very user-friendly way, whether it's about scams

or whether it's about, you know, kind of a did, you know,

and we find

that if we use our digital channels in a smart way

with consumable bite-sized pieces of information,

you'd be surprised how many click-throughs we get

on education.

And it also gives you an opportunity to mine that data

for customer sentiment.

So if your customers are clicking constantly on scams,

You should be paying attention,

or if they're clicking on something else, like, tell me

how I can get a, you know, kind of a mortgage,

or anything that's more educational.

It doesn't always have to be about

marketing to create that loyalty. Excellent.

Yeah, I think about the generations panel

that we heard a little bit earlier and how we heard from,

I think it was Jack at the very end,

and how he was talking about

how my generation just wants something

that I don't have to think too much about.

That's super easy and I get instant gratification.

And while that was kind of funny to hear from someone from

that was a Gen Z, you know, member, you know,

I think we all think that way to some degree, right?

We just want it to be simple.

We've got so many other things going on in our lives

and in terms of access to information,

we just want it there.

And we want it to be easy.

And I think about this, this phrase from one

of my colleagues, and this is the, the mindset

that we think about in terms of how we want

to create our digital experience is just do it for me,

educate me, but also just do it for me.

I don't wanna spend the time going through the math

of creating a budget

or having to go through a long process.

Do it for me as long as I consent

and we're doing it in an ethical manner, I want you

to just do it for me and make it simple and easy for me.

When I think about the marketing dollars

and in that specific aspect of it, we could spend tons

of money on that aspect,

but I think the more important piece of

where we should be spending our money is again,

simplification of processes.

So that again, we are creating another reason

for our clients to want to be their primary bank for them.

And thinking about why are they going

to another fintech app?

Why are they going to another financial institution?

In all honesty, it makes things more complicated, right?

When you've got money in bank A, bank B,

and then you've got tons of different apps.

If we just did things right the first time with our clients,

there wouldn't be a need for them to be going

to all these different places.

That's excellent. That was actually my next question.

And oh, sorry. You hit on it. So that's perfect Nathan.

So Nathan, I'm gonna start with you this time.

Can you continue to have the conversation a little bit about

what experience do you think we should be focused on

as an industry to reimagine primacy

for this new generation

that is really all about ease and access?

'cause we understand that having 50 apps,

and I have a checking account here and a CD there

and a loan, there probably isn't the

easiest way to transact.

They're just accustomed to that.

So what experience do we need to lean into to try

to bring primacy back to the forefront?

Well, being the head of financial health

and wellness, I'm gonna say that it's gonna be all

around the financial health and wellness experience,

and that's gonna be the value that we provide

to consumers.

And that's what we should lean into.

You know, MXs mission is helping people be financially

strong or their financially, their financial strength.

And everyone wants that same thing.

We want financial freedom, right?

And so, you know, I think that's

where we can lean in and leverage data.

Again, providing insights to our clients using that data.

The sad part is we've got so much data

that we don't even know how to use all of it yet.

Even at Bank of America, I can say that we are not perfect.

We've got tons of data that we are still trying to learn how

to use, and with a bank of our scale,

we have to get it right.

So that's also what takes us a little bit more time.

We're not as nimble as some of our fintech partners

or maybe some of our smaller bank competitors.

/so I think just leaning into helping our clients

whatever stage of their financial journey that they're in,

one, understanding it, and then meeting them where they are,

and then helping them achieve to where they want to go.

Excellent. Martha, how do you see that?

Not a whole lot to add to what Nathan said.

I think he hit the nail on the head.

The only other, you know, kind of focus I think that

I would add is that if there's,

if there's one thing that I, I think that we've heard

that we just need to find a way to kind of turn that into a,

you know, kind of a stickiness, that we want

to create in terms of customers wanting to come back to us

and be a repeat customer, is that loyalty and trust factor.

I think we all understand it.

We all have been able to see it in action.

And I do think that there is,

that's an under leveraged asset

that banks have with their customers.

I think we're starting to use the right toolkit in order

to convert that into, you know, that stickiness,

whether it's financial health and wellbeing

or anticipating a consumer need

or identifying, you know, a point of,

decision making and the like.

But I also think that there's still, we can dig deeper,

I guess is really the the point I wanna make.

For example, many of us in here are,

remember the financial crisis of 2008.

Maybe remember when Silicon Valley Bank happened

to tip over?

But what did you do?

You probably called your main primary bank and said help.

You didn't call cash app.

I would imagine you probably didn't call another fintech

to say, can you help me with where my money is?

You called your bank. And I think that that, you know, kind

of primal primary kind of reaction

and trust is something we really ought to dig into

and say, you know what, what's that compelling thing

and value that we want to invest in, that we want

to safeguard and that we want to try

to continue to replicate.

Excellent. David, I'm gonna change up the

question a little bit for you.

So we've talked a lot about

how much financial institutions have

a tremendous amount of access to data.

We have more data than any of us know what to do

with then we haven't harnessed that yet.

And so if we're trying

to help financial institutions understand how to become

more of the primary financial institution,

are there specific segments of data that you would

recommend we should be focused on that could help drive

that primacy over others?

Sure. Um, couple things.

Just to double down on what you said,

we just ran a survey, a quarter million people

and 24% of them, when we asked them

who their primary bank was, they said Cash App

or Venmo, which blew my mind.

And that's just because it's a frictionless,

it's easy, right?

On the data side, what my company does,

we specialize on transaction data

and we leverage that data,

so merchants can target customers.

And as a result of that, we allow, in this case, members

to earn cash back on average around 7%.

So that's just one instance where we partner

with credit unions and banks

and we integrate with their core

and we get access to that financial and transaction data.

And then on the other side, you have merchants like Amazon,

Walmart, Home Depot, pretty much all the majors.

They're creating these campaigns

and they're saying, um, can you get me a 25-

to 35-year-old male that lives in Florida

that loves sneakers and we know that this customer

or this member spent $3,000 at Adidas

and Reebok, Nike will pay a ton of money

to acquire that customer.

And the vast majority of that money we give back

to the customer in the form of cash back.

And these are predominantly debit card users which do not

get cash back.

So that is just one small way we really hyper-focus on

transaction data and then we connect them with merchants

that are trying to acquire those customers.

But that is just one sliver

and a huge pool of possible data that you can leverage.

But it is massive and you can get lost in it.

But for us, that's where we're hyper-focused and,

and it seems to be working with members and customers.

So Nathan, you talked a lot about Bank of America and

that data that you have access to

and we're all trying to harness it.

So are there specific data points

that you've narrowed your focus on for

around this topic of primacy? Yeah.

So we've gone all in on financial health

and wellness around segmentation.

So every bank and financial institution probably has a

segmentation strategy for our consumer bank,

we've leaned into financial health as part of that,

that segmentation strategy.

So we have a lot of on us data from our clients.

We know about their checking account balances,

we know about their credit card

activity if they're a revolver, if they're a transactor.

We also know if they are on unemployment.

So many different things

and so many data, different data points

that we have taken an interpretation

of a client's financial health based off that data.

The challenge with that is it's just on us data.

So unfortunately, because I can't see your accounts

and we know that

many individuals bank at different institutions,

I can't see your off us assets.

So again, it's just an interpretation of

what we think your financial health is.

And we've taken our, 32 million

clients in the consumer bank

and we put them into these eight different segments.

And so everyone from the, that is living paycheck

to paycheck to those

that are financially secure and in a good place.

And we've used that data right now,

and we're just in the learning stages of it right now,

and there's so many more possibilities to this.

But we've taken this

and we've used this data from a marketing

and communication standpoint, so that when Bank

of America emails you

or communicates you, if you are living paycheck to paycheck,

I'm not gonna talk to you about Merrill Investing

and talking with a financial advisor.

If you're just barely trying to get by, I'm probably going

to provide you with information about our products

and services that relate to your specific needs.

And so we've been able to implement that.

We've been able to implement that for more complex

situations too as well.

So if our clients have told us that they're working on

credit and their goal is to improve their credit,

we are connecting them with our non-profit partners in the

community so that they can then work with them one-on-one

for coaching that we cannot provide to the same degree

that a nonprofit counseling service can provide.

So again, it's the power of the data,

and again, this is just on us data.

I could imagine the possibilities if I could see everything

going on in someone's financial portfolio.

Sounds like we need an aggregator out there, right?

Let's share data. Would everybody in the room

be willing to share data?

That'd be amazing. Yeah, we can do that.

Martha, let's talk a little bit about AI

and how we think We've all had conversations around

how is AI going to disrupt our industry?

How will AI potentially replace human interactions?

And David, you said it as we started the conversation,

it used to be easy to be the primary financial institution

because they walked in your branch

and you talked to them about their grandkids and their dog

and their vacation, all those things.

And through that you were building trust and

therefore you were the first person they would come to.

But we know there's a lot of information out there

that we're aggregating across different channels

and we are going to have to lean into

how AI plays a role there without replacing humans.

So Martha, can you talk to us a little bit about

what your strategy is there?

Yeah, I think I'm going to mention two strategies.

One is, it's off that kind of Venn diagram

that you saw this morning that saw Rashida put up around

autonomy, augmentation,

and, the third one was fragmentation, I think.

And, I think that's right.

Because those are three operating models

that help you get efficient or make better decisions

or are, you know, helping you augment your strategies.

But it goes further than that.

So I think the conversation, at least my bias was I heard

that as it related to what do I do with data

and what are the types of, you know, kind

of operating tools I should think

about as it relates to data.

So that's why I was thinking, you know,

automation augmentation and fragmentation.

But it actually goes further than that.

There are other types of operational activity

that now I think we're starting

to see some very exciting things

and we should consider them such as a agentic AI, where

that is about actually creating the way

with which you can augment a decision or a strategy

or execute on a, you know, product.

And so it's not less about honing the data

and allowing for better human decisions, human led.

I love that too. That was great.

But it's also about other types of tasks

and, you know, she only had 30, 45 minutes,

so she couldn't get into all of it,

but I think we are starting to see kind of

that next pivot, which is exciting.

It's early, but it's promising, which is, you know, yes,

there's data, yes, it's about efficiency.

Yes, it's about augmenting strategies,

but it's other types of operational tasks that now I think,

you know, I'm sure there are a few of you

with other examples, but I think the agentic piece,

particularly in commerce is, you know, going to explode.

Excellent. David, I know you have some strong opinions

about AI and how we integrate it into

the financial strategy.

So you wanna share that with us?

Yeah, sure. I think it's,

nobody really knows it's moving so quickly.

I equate it to like, fire, you can use fire

to cook your meal and it can also burn down your house.

There is no doubt

that it's gonna make financial

institutions way more efficient.

It's gonna take that data,

it's gonna make better recommendations, it's gonna be,

not only be able to show them what they need today,

but predict what they need in the future.

The thing that scares me — I recently went to Italy

with my wife and I was using it, which restaurant, which

that, and as a vendor, I've been using it as

if I was this financial institution,

which vendor should I choose?

And AI says this one, right?

And then I started doing, which bank should I use?

And it said that one, right?

Like, how is it making that decision?

At least with Google, we would Google banks near me

or something, we'd read.

We do all our own research.

And if you ever listen to Sam Altman, he's like,

his biggest fear is

that the young generation is not

making decisions for themselves.

It's AI telling them.

So if they say, which financial institution should I choose?

How is it making that decision? Right?

And I think that's, that's the

burn your house down scenario.

Thank you. Nathan, have you started

to implement AI into your strategies?

And if so, can you share a little bit about it?

Yeah, we're still kind of, so we have our,

Erica virtual assistant.

So that was our first kind

of test at dipping our toes in the water around AI.

And so, that uses natural language processing to be able

to help our clients out with simple self-service,

getting responses to certain questions that they have.

I'd say we're thinking about the future of

what does this look like to continue to go down that path

of automating certain tasks for our clients,

and also thinking about it from a financial advice

and guidance standpoint.

Um, but

before we even get there, I think we're already starting

to think about how do we lay the foundation to get ready

for, the future of AI.

We serve a large number of clients across the United States,

and so we're thinking about all different generations,

all different types of financial needs,

and how do we make sure

that we're protecting our clients with AI?

So how are we helping them to build trust around AI?

How are we helping them to avoid scams

and how are we helping them, to your point,

think critically about how to use AI

and still apply critical thinking too as well.

So again, that's just kind of where we are,

with ai.

Excellent, thank you. So we heard

earlier from some different generational consumers,

potential members and how they engage

with financial institutions

and how it's very different to them.

So as we continue to think about whether

or not primacy is still important, and we know that

although we can't be all things to everyone, we are all

interacting with different generations, which we need

to continue to do to, you know, build our brand, continue

to build our product sets.

So are there certain actions we should be focused on

that we can implement

to gain different primacy across the

generational gaps, that word did not roll out.

David, do you wanna start with

Yeah, I think Nathan said it,

it is all about trust, right?

And since the beginning of time people learn

by telling stories and I think we can't forget about that.

Like how do we tell stories in a digital error?

Because it all begins with trust.

I have a friend who started a company

and he was getting VC backing

and he's like, where should I bank?

And I was like, I love this community bank.

You could pick up the phone and call the CEO.

It's amazing. And he's like, I love it. He signed up.

And then the investors were wiring it

and they were like, this is the most archaic process ever.

So he closed his account

and then he opened it up another way.

Like they accomplished step one, the trust.

I love them, they're great, they're personable,

but they were so far behind digitally, he's like,

I cannot run my business with this

and it's a $15 billion bank.

But like, they were so far behind

that he closed his account and opened another one.

So I think telling those stories is super important.

A lot of my partners talk about,

there's three pillars of every community.

There's education, there's healthcare,

and there's access to finance, right?

And the three things that they say is important to get

that finance is credit, collateral, and character, right?

And I'm always like, how do you quantify character, right?

Like, that's so hard to do.

So I think establishing trust is the most important.

And I think telling stories,

I'm gonna tell one quick story and I'll make it quick.

This is about Darlene.

'cause she told me this story and I've told this story about

1,200 times because I'm so impressed.

She had a member that was sitting at the bank

an older man, he's about 83.

And he sat there for about an hour until one

of the tellers came out and said, are you okay, sir?

And he's like, oh, I'm just, just sitting here

waiting like, would you like some water?

He is like, that would be amazing, right?

Gets him some water. And an hour goes by

and he finally gets up

and he walks to the teller and guess what he does?

Anyone? He slips them a

note and says, “I'm robbing you.

Give me a thousand dollars.” So Suncoast,

the manager comes around and says, what are you doing?

And he's like, I've fallen behind my bills.

This is the only thing I know that I can do, right?

So he's like, come around,

we're gonna give you a thousand dollars.

We're gonna do a plan, we're gonna get you in a good spot.

Right? Like that is, you know, it's a wonderful life,

George Bailey type stuff.

And Suncoast is a $25 billion bank, right?

So like those stories I've told,

and I am sure the people I've told have told, right?

So I think we need to do a good job of continuing

to tell those stories because

they still resonate with people.

Thank you, David. How about Martha?

Is there something — I cannot add to that at all. Okay.

It's a good story. Yeah, it's a fantastic story.

But also, there's like eight lessons in there, right?

Yeah. It's the human touch, the fact that community matters,

that you can't just expect digital only to always be there

for you or something that's going to serve every need.

I could go on and on, so I'll,

but I'll pass the baton. Yeah.

You know, just going into to what David said,

like stories, data tells one story.

It's a quantitative story, right?

It's the qualitative piece.

And so one of the things that we're gonna do when we go

back, is Jessica gave me the idea we're gonna do that,

generational panel at Bank of America with our clients,

so that we can hear directly from them.

We have the data piece, we need

to hear from them too as well.

And we do those on a regular basis.

But we're gonna do this again with the mindset

of financial health and wellness

and how do we meet those different generational needs.

And that's been our strategy for a long time,

is listening to our clients.

And it's served us well.

You know, we were seeing transactionally, lots

of people were sending money over to Venmo and Cash app.

We started talking with our clients

and asking them, why are you doing that?

And we started hearing from parents that said,

I'm sending this money over to Venmo and Cash app

because that's how my kids pay for

their different purchases.

And that's how I'm giving them money so

that they can transact.

Venmo has a debit card that they can use.

Bank of America does not. Wow.

That was an eye-opener for us.

And while we weren't first to market with it,

we did create a family banking product to serve

that specific need.

And now we're capturing children under the age of 13.

So you think about primacy, going back to that,

you probably still have some sort of tie

to the original financial institution

that your parents set you up with.

So again, when we think about that, we're starting with

that too, as well as part of our growth strategy.

If we can get the individuals early on in their lives

and being a banking partner with them, it'll create them

a customer for life.

I love that. And it really is about understanding the

needs of our consumers and our members.

And Martha, you said it as well.

Deposits used to be the strategy for primacy. At Suncoast,

we're not a Zelle provider today,

and we often, we serve a community

that leans into the need to have Zelle.

They either pay their bills that way,

they pay their employees that way.

They're in the gig space.

And because we don't have the ability today, MX is fixing

that for us to have Zelle, then

we don't win that, that membership necessarily.

And so for that segment of consumers, Zelle,

who ever providing that becomes

potentially their primary financial institution,

that's the first thing they ask when they walk in.

But for everybody, it's different.

Which is why data supports that journey that we're all on

to understand what does it take to gain the trust,

ease of access to bring a consumer in and potentially win

and be their primary financial institution.

So with that, we have about 10 minutes

left or a little less.

Who has the first question for this panel?

Don't let them off the hook.

So let's have some really good, hard questions.

Somebody's got a question? Yes, thank you.

You talked about trust. I think there's a microphone

coming, hopefully

I can speak.

We just, sorry, sorry.

You talked about trust,

but kind of missed out on the loyalty side.

So one

of you guys does merchant funded offers, right?

Yeah. It's, I'll use an example of my wife.

She has 21 credit cards, she has a binder, right?

She knows that X bank gives 5X on groceries.

So when we go to Disney with the kids, she buys $3,000

of gift cards in the grocery store.

So she gets points on grocery spend, right?

So she's not loyal, right?

Whatever is the best situation at that moment,

that's the card that she's going to use, right?

So for us, you know, we really focus on the underserved,

which is debit cards, right?

We all know since 2008 interchange is too low,

so no one can afford to give debit card rewards.

We're able to do that, which how I explained.

So that for us is really low hanging fruit, right?

It's an ignored sector. Um, so we've really focused on that.

And for our user base

that's going from nothing to something.

It has meaning, right?

As opposed on the credit card level, you know,

it's fractions of basis points that everyone's fighting over

or this lounge or that lounge, right?

So that's a really, really hard, um, demographic

to compete against because they're so savvy

and they're loyal to no one.

If you're going from nothing to something,

they will be loyal to that, right?

Because it's that first time that somebody's seeing them

and it's the first time someone's recognizing them.

So that's where we've specifically hyperfocused in on. Yeah,

I mean, what I was getting at was, you know,

JP Morgan, how much did you pay last year in rewards?

Do you know?

I don't want to share share

that. I'll tell you.

It was $23 billion. Yeah.

That's bigger than the revenue of

the sixth largest bank in America.

Mm-hmm. Isn't it about bribery loyalty?

I would say no. I mean, it's choice, right?

And there are lots of different ways that we try

to create loyalty and that's off of $150 million,

150 million card holders.

So let's, you know, put it in perspective, but,

but it's also about choice.

And so if you think about the leverage that

that rewards program creates for the way

that people wanna spend their money, it's very similar to

how choice

and points are given for the debit card

concept, which I think is fantastic.

So I see it as if there's going

to be a way with which you want to spend your money invest,

then we should be helping you leverage that lifestyle,

whether it's travel or dining or education.

And we've also created our, you know,

I call it ultimate rewards,

which is not necessarily credit card base,

it's about extending the community in terms of those types

of companies that want to create loyalty,

but maybe they don't have a credit card.

So we are trying to expose those same, you know, kind

of loyalty opportunities so that it's easy for someone

who has a bank account and wants to leverage it.

They can, they can go and they can create points

or use points outside of credit card.

So, that, that's the way I would think about it.

Yeah. It's interesting though

that you would tie the amount

that they paid out being the size that they are

and the number of cards they have.

It's interesting that you would tie loyalty to the amount

that they paid out in rewards, because I would argue that,

and I don't know the data,

but I would argue that a large segment of

that payout was probably to people like David's wife

that aren't loyal at all.

They're going into whichever card is gonna solve the problem

that they have today.

They want to travel, they're gonna go

to their best travel card, they want cash back,

they're gonna go to their best cash back card.

So it's interesting that you tied that together.

I think David's wife is pretty unique. I

Do it too. I do it too.

I would argue it's not 20, what?

21 cards.

I don't quite have 21 just

'cause I don't have that organization.

Yeah. So I don't — You'd

be surprised how quickly people switch. Yeah.

I think they lean into the card

that meets the need in the moment.

I really don't think that — so there is no loyalty.

That's what this whole conversation is. We are —

but how do you then, how do you create it? I mean

that's, well I'd like to turn the question around

and just, also as we did with center

and primacy, which I think would be a great conversation

to have, and that is how do you want

to define loyalty, right?

Is it every, every bank account,

all your credit cards, all your spending.

And I think the way that so many of the companies

that are here at the conference kind

of target their customer base

and then how do you build that ecosystem

or that financial, that set of financial services around

that experience, whether it's financial health

or others, maybe that's loyalty.

And I think that's a great debate.

Yeah. And, and I wanna give,

if anyone else has another question,

I wanna give the opportunity, but I will,

the question I think we should be asking ourselves is

how important is primacy anymore?

I would rest assured that the dollars earned

on the money they paid on rewards superseded it.

Correct. So, so does it matter that they're not loyal to

that primary, that financial institution?

I don't know. Maybe it matters,

but it's a, that's a whole philosophical question.

I know specifically for credit unions that we have,

'cause that you said that that is

what we have stood on for so many years.

We build relationships differently, right?

Not the case anymore because we've gone into this digital

space that doesn't allow that to happen.

I personally poke the bear all the time

with our executive team because is that important anymore?

Or is it more important that I'm meeting the needs

of our members in the space when

and where they need to be met?

I'm giving them easy access to it

and I've priced that product in a way that it's beneficial

for the cooperative, for the movement, for the membership.

I'm okay with that. If you have 22 other cards,

okay, I'm okay with that.

It's also harder to get loyalty from the affluent than

the underserved I think.

I think a lot of people who gave me a chance, right?

Like that's, you know, whether it was that teacher

or that boss or whatever that, you know,

so I think there's a lot greater opportunity to create

that royalty loyalty with the underserved

where the affluent has so many choices.

So it's a lot tougher. Yeah.

Are there any other questions? Excellent.

Another one. Yes, absolutely. Microphone's behind

This is really interesting to me.

You know, most companies,

I'm from the tech world, so I have very simple KPIs, right?

So if I was thinking about a bank, I would think

of three KPIs, revenue per customer per month, cost

to serve customer per month, and primacy.

And to me primacy is how much

of the business am I getting in my account?

Okay. So I want the paycheck,

I want all the bill pay, I want everything.

'cause that's how I make money.

You're a tech company. Yeah. CAC, LTV, and retention.

There you go. Yeah. Those are the three

things. So yeah,

I, that's, so I'm asking, when it comes

to loyalty and trust and everything, what is the measure?

Is it rewards? Is it what, what is it how,

I think it's different for everyone

because speaking for our credit union, we don't lead

with am I making money?

A matter of fact, when we sit in our ALCO conversations,

our CEO says the margin is too big.

I need you to take that margin down.

We need to be under, under a certain, I'm capitalist.

So it, it's, I'm sorry, say I'm

a capitalist. And

Yeah, so it's just, it's different.

So I think everybody answers that question differently

'cause we don't lead with ROI,

but someone else on the panel might have a different answer.

One thing I would say is that,

you also are looking for what are the needs of

that particular, this goes back to the use cases

and the loyalty and the life cycles of services that,

you know, goes to the panel right after lunch.

What can you achieve with that 19-year-old?

What can you achieve with a woman getting

ready to, to retire?

And that's where data is helpful.

Yes, of course we want to be able to do things

that don't lose money

otherwise we can't serve other customers.

So we have to come up with smart ways

with which we can acquire that customer.

And we use digital channels

and lots of different things with the panel

talked about to create that.

I actually think that loyalty is important,

but defining that in a way that creates the ROI

that you described is also important.

So I do think that data helps

and the ability for us to decide

how can acquire everything that

that particular person needs at that point in their life

or their particular profile should be a goal because

therefore we're serving our customers.

So we're always gonna continue to try to learn

and acquire that information so

that we can produce a product that they wanna buy.

I think loyalty is very important.

We will end on that note.

This sounds like it was a really good conversation

that maybe should be continued.

So I wanna thank my panelists up here.

That was great conversation. Thank you for your insights.

Thank you for your willingness to share openly with the,

with the crowd here.

And we can continue having the conversation perhaps

over drinks tonight.

So thank you so much.